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[Discussion] PK vs CK and rules around this

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Psychedelic

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Hi all

This came up on discord and we’ve all agreed it’s going to be a topic that needs to be up for community-wide discussion.

We’ve thrown a few ideas around but let’s get everyone’s input around what defines a CK vs a PK and what rules and consequences do we need to have around a legitimate Character Kill.

/discuss
 

Hound

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Character CKs should only be forced when being killed by your own faction as this is a huge step in development for both factions and the characters. I don't think anyone else should have the right to CK you unless you choose to for that reason. A CK is a big thing and forcing CKs would be a mistake. Other servers have tried this by having applications etc but I just feel it becomes a thing people apply for just to get one over on other players.
 

Psychedelic

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I don't think anyone else should have the right to CK you unless you choose to for that reason. A CK is a big thing and forcing CKs would be a mistake.
I do quite agree with this... it would be unfair to have CK's forced on you unless you agree to it.

Following on from Bradley's suggestion on Discord, I think it would be a wise move to at least clear out the characters assets when they're CK'ed (or disable the character from being played on). This would stop people from just name changing and skipping out on character development of a new character. A good way to stop a "new character" from starting out with $10m, 2 houses and 5 cars.

It would also create another house for sale etc.
 

nanpou.

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I do quite agree with this... it would be unfair to have CK's forced on you unless you agree to it.

Following on from Bradley's suggestion on Discord, I think it would be a wise move to at least clear out the characters assets when they're CK'ed (or disable the character from being played on). This would stop people from just name changing and skipping out on character development of a new character. A good way to stop a "new character" from starting out with $10m, 2 houses and 5 cars.

It would also create another house for sale etc.
This is honestly a no go from me, you'd wasting a players time. They already lose everything such as connections, char dev, backstory, friendships, memories of good shit, etc. Plus money is OOC, it's just something that benefits you and helps you acheive what you want to obtain on RP servers and helps you with your RP. Nobody, and I mean nobody; who actually roleplays around the illegal side of things, and mostly legal too such as PD and FD, ever RP their actual money as their RP money.
 

FakeTrump

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CK's should be way more common than they have been before, so people value their characters more and fear death. Now it's just a bunch of provocation and undying tough guys.
 

Bradley

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They already lose everything such as connections, char dev, backstory, friendships, memories of good shit, etc. Plus money is OOC, it's just something that benefits you and helps you acheive what you want to obtain on RP servers and helps you with your RP.

Money is used in character to buy vehicles, properties, etc. for your character and it is not out of character. We're talking about character kills and they should be emphasized with the value they come with. You shouldn't start back off with everything given to you on a silver platter, there is no character development other than you saying; "I inherited all this from my mom when she passed away" and instantly have a house, vehicle, property, etc. By freezing assets, anything on that character whether it be properties, vehicles, money, etc. will be frozen and that character will be disabled, you would need to create another new character.
 

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The freezing assets thing will only be plausible if properties, vehicles, and money don't require a hard grind to get. Having to start grinding again from square one like a new player will drain the fun out the game if the grind for RP essentials (vehicles, houses, and money) is a drag.


Bradley's concept will be good, if the economy is kept under close watch by staff.
 

Psychedelic

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The freezing assets thing will only be plausible if properties, vehicles, and money don't require a hard grind to get. Having to start grinding again from square one like a new player will drain the fun out the game if the grind for RP essentials (vehicles, houses, and money) is a drag.


Bradley's concept will be good, if the economy is kept under close watch by staff.

Would it be a reasonable approach to have some sort of percentage that your assets are reduced by? If you have a total value of all your assets and it gets reduced by (hypothetically 50%), you get to keep the remainder in cash?

I don’t know, maybe that might just mean more work to manage and it might be too hard..? I’m just thinking out loud here
 

Fox

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Bradley's concept will be good, if the economy is kept under close watch by staff.
It will be :)

... don't require a hard grind to get.
That is entirely subjective, but the system we are working towards would facilitate you not having to grind (script) jobs and can focus entirely on RP. Especially when coming to terms with properties and such.
They already lose everything such as connections, char dev, backstory, friendships, memories of good shit, etc.
I have no doubt that there are some people who do that, most people will just go back with another name after having an OOC agreement that they are someone from another "set" in a gang, or whatever equivalent term can be applied to other factions and will continue just where they left off.

I would be inclined to agree with @Bradley on his way of handling a CK, if we can figure out a way to make PKs more meaningful. People tend to associate themselves with their characters a lot over time, and usually with CKs in my experience it happens to the people who have put a ton of effort into their characters. While "throwaway" characters, e.g. little to no effort in the background, general traits, or even roleplay, go free. Especially if there is a sort of forced system in place, which I am highly opposed to, unless there is an agreement between the players involved.

Another way of handling this matter and staying in line with the suggestion put forth by @Bradley would be, allowing the player to appeal their asset freeze. For example:
Player A, previously a notorious street gangster with the Ballas (im just going to use this a placeholder, please dont crucify me), has been CK'ed during a gang war. The normal procedure sets and in the assets are frozen. Player A can now file an appeal where he clearly states his intentions with the new character, instead of being a notorious street thug, he now wishes to roleplay a police officer and to fund his character and the development of it he'd want a car and 10 to 50% of the funds he previously had back. After the reviewal from a dedicated staff team, which also has the resources to monitor the specific instances of this happening, it could be permitted and the assets be transferred over, or denied.​

What are your thoughts on this?
 

Peezy

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Would it be a reasonable approach to have some sort of percentage that your assets are reduced by? If you have a total value of all your assets and it gets reduced by (hypothetically 50%), you get to keep the remainder in cash?

I don’t know, maybe that might just mean more work to manage and it might be too hard..? I’m just thinking out loud here

No point in trying to balance it out. It's all in or all out.

The concept could work, if players don't have to grind for a ridiculous amount of time just to get a house/car. If the economy isn't kept at a certain level, the process of accumulating assets will be dreadful and just end up taking away from the overall fun of actual role play and demoralize the player base.


That is entirely subjective, but the system we are working towards would facilitate you not having to grind (script) jobs and can focus entirely on RP. Especially when coming to terms with properties and such.

Yeah, what I meant is situations like players having to spend more hours grinding for cash then actually RPing just to save up enough to buy a 5mill house in the ghetto so they can RP a gang banger.

Also, can you expand any further on how the players won't be dependent on scrip jobs for cash like other servers?
 

Snick

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Idk what's my input regarding it, in one hand it could be a good idea to get CK'd and lose it all (would make you wanna do your best in order not to get CK'd) but even with that I think it should have certain restrictions, even for factions, for example you can't CK someone if they keep being inactive, IC wise it could be like the character is not being around the hood but OOC he can be very busy.
Bear in mind that such actions may lower the participation in factions on the long run, why would people wanna put their assets on the hands of their "superiors", or even worse what if their superiors put an eye on one of their assets ICly/OOCly and they want it, they can come up with an IC reason to CK in order to get it? Idk how far it can get.

What if you name change before you get CK'd? Would you be able to keep your assets?
I mean... It happens when someone rich is moving into the city, I don't see a necessity to wipe that option completely, what if you wanna RP a business owner and do stocks while beforehand you were the biggest drug lord in the city? You gonna have to start it all over again? It might make people get rage quits after all the hard work invested. Should also consider that aspect.
Not to mention people handing over assets to their IC/OOC friends if they know they fucked up, such things can happen IRL but how exactly would it help the economy? (Maybe make a legal agreement prior to that, for the cases of death etc, ability to transfer from father to son maybe?)

How about making a rule for certain factions, if they choose to CK a player they'd have to send bills (whether if IC/OOC) to the families to cover for their lose - more likely for mob RP I suppose.

Idk I don't have a clear opinion regarding that one, it really depends on the outcome of the server, economic balance and all that.

I suggest we give it a shot and see where it takes us, I wanna see people leaving the city and going off-land because they know that if they come back they'd end up dead, maybe even try to make a come-back, create a new faction / sub-factions, try to get even by finding the right moment to covering up for their mistakes and hope their bosses would spare their lives etc.
I think faction-hopping shouldn't be restricted either, if you join some ruthless bikers gang outside the city and they're willing to take you, maybe to make it that the previous faction would no longer be able to CK you, or maybe make them able to CK you but you'd offer that gang some of your valuables in order to start a war that'd result in PKing the mobsters for example, and once PK'd they can't go after you again, stuff like that.
 
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Fox

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Also, can you expand any further on how the players won't be dependent on scrip jobs for cash like other servers?
Since it is our goal to be transparent and this is within my sphere of influence (at least the conception and design phase), yes I can elaborate a little further.

Scripted jobs will be kept to a minimal amount and will pay significantly less than roleplay jobs (I am not talking half, I am talking one tenth if not less). Players will be encouraged to seek "employment" with either legal factions or a concept I sadly cannot share much about YET, to receive a steady flow of income.

Furthermore, the prices of vehicles, houses and apartments will be in the area of $15,000.00 to $500,000.00 with outliers on either side really. Houses or apartments in areas claimed by gangs, thanks to the great support from Faction Management and @Xgin here, will be nowhere near $5,000,000.00 or generally speaking nowhere near the $100,000.00 mark. They will be affordable in terms of monetary effort needed to buy it, to allow factions to establish themselves. Player to player trading with absolute ridiculous prices will also be combatted by my team, if we see/find/get a report from someone or possibly even by the script that only a certain percentage of the MSRP can be added to the sales value. Plus with an active and engaging Property Management team in close cooperation with Faction Management, there shouldn't be any housing held by inactive players for long.

I'll give you a concrete example:
The projects of South Los Santos, have many buildings that would be suitable for apartment complexes, but also standalone houses. Since we suppose that many gangs will focus on blocks around there, we can somewhat anticipate the rate of crime and such. Furthermore, we know that these areas will be highly frequented by players who seek to join these factions. To allow them to establish themselves in this area, the prices for an apartment in one of the complexes would be $15,000.00 to $30,000.00 (depending on the number of the rooms). Not more, since it is realistic that areas with gang activity or illegal activity would be relatively inexpensive to settle in. There are more details for this that I cannot share at this point in time, sorry.

Now with that out of the way, how we aim to counter the script job grind and allow people to focus on roleplay, we have multiple ideas floating around:
One such being - players can take jobs in any business that is owned by the server and roleplay their jobs there, if someone is actively attending the business (e.g. a grocery store), there might a blip on the map indicating it is staffed actively, or other non-staffed businesses will be locked. Through this the player not only gets a paycheck (yet to be exactly defined how this will be handled, so I'll go with the hourly format there are more ideas for this) from the business, but also a sales commission from the goods that were sold during the time the player staffed the business (if multiple players staff the same business the formula for the commission would be: sales commission divided by the number of players staffing the business).

Another being a system similar to the faction system, where players can employ other players. This could work wonderfully with garages, dealerships, clubs, restaurants and so forth.

And last but not least, there will be a sort of welfare that a player will receive as long as they are not employed by: a) a legal faction, b) a player owned business, c) exceed a certain value held in assets (arbitrary number: $200,000.00), which will cover all the necessary expenses a player might encounter daily. With that said, of course we need to consider the prices of all other goods aside from vehicles, and properties. I personally don't want to see entrance fees exceeding $100.00, or drinks and food costing more than $50.00 in non-exclusive businesses (that will actually be a requirement for leasing a business from my team, that you will not put extraordinarily high prices on items or give them away for free for no reason whatsoever). For prices of guns and drugs I have little to no input on as that is more in the jurisdiction of @Xgin and his team and they could give more input on these. At least from the legal side of things, I can assure you I will use everything in my power to avoid unrealistic prices on consumer goods. Also noteworthy to mention here, I am at least in my sphere of influence employing the concept of finitism and scarcity. Which in turn means, there won't be unlimited housing, there won't be unlimited supplies, and most important for me there won't be an infinite amount of money floating around in the part of the economy I oversee.

We are also working towards making the aforementioned welfare system as something that can be to some extent be influenced by the State Government ran by @Maxim through budget allocations and such, though no details are yet ready to be published (principle of finitism again, if the Govt decides to allocate more funds towards welfare but that in turn means they go over the budget cap and can't sustain it, it will be cancelled out) on how exactly that will pan out.

This is the general outline from my side and my team. For future reference you can look up the posts by @ezkNYNE on vehicles and such, or generally take a look at my post history in regards to similar topics.
 

Snick

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Since it is our goal to be transparent and this is within my sphere of influence (at least the conception and design phase), yes I can elaborate a little further.

Scripted jobs will be kept to a minimal amount and will pay significantly less than roleplay jobs (I am not talking half, I am talking one tenth if not less). Players will be encouraged to seek "employment" with either legal factions or a concept I sadly cannot share much about YET, to receive a steady flow of income.

Furthermore, the prices of vehicles, houses and apartments will be in the area of $15,000.00 to $500,000.00 with outliers on either side really. Houses or apartments in areas claimed by gangs, thanks to the great support from Faction Management and @Xgin here, will be nowhere near $5,000,000.00 or generally speaking nowhere near the $100,000.00 mark. They will be affordable in terms of monetary effort needed to buy it, to allow factions to establish themselves. Player to player trading with absolute ridiculous prices will also be combatted by my team, if we see/find/get a report from someone or possibly even by the script that only a certain percentage of the MSRP can be added to the sales value. Plus with an active and engaging Property Management team in close cooperation with Faction Management, there shouldn't be any housing held by inactive players for long.

I'll give you a concrete example:
The projects of South Los Santos, have many buildings that would be suitable for apartment complexes, but also standalone houses. Since we suppose that many gangs will focus on blocks around there, we can somewhat anticipate the rate of crime and such. Furthermore, we know that these areas will be highly frequented by players who seek to join these factions. To allow them to establish themselves in this area, the prices for an apartment in one of the complexes would be $15,000.00 to $30,000.00 (depending on the number of the rooms). Not more, since it is realistic that areas with gang activity or illegal activity would be relatively inexpensive to settle in. There are more details for this that I cannot share at this point in time, sorry.

Now with that out of the way, how we aim to counter the script job grind and allow people to focus on roleplay, we have multiple ideas floating around:
One such being - players can take jobs in any business that is owned by the server and roleplay their jobs there, if someone is actively attending the business (e.g. a grocery store), there might a blip on the map indicating it is staffed actively, or other non-staffed businesses will be locked. Through this the player not only gets a paycheck (yet to be exactly defined how this will be handled, so I'll go with the hourly format there are more ideas for this) from the business, but also a sales commission from the goods that were sold during the time the player staffed the business (if multiple players staff the same business the formula for the commission would be: sales commission divided by the number of players staffing the business).

Another being a system similar to the faction system, where players can employ other players. This could work wonderfully with garages, dealerships, clubs, restaurants and so forth.

And last but not least, there will be a sort of welfare that a player will receive as long as they are not employed by: a) a legal faction, b) a player owned business, c) exceed a certain value held in assets (arbitrary number: $200,000.00), which will cover all the necessary expenses a player might encounter daily. With that said, of course we need to consider the prices of all other goods aside from vehicles, and properties. I personally don't want to see entrance fees exceeding $100.00, or drinks and food costing more than $50.00 in non-exclusive businesses (that will actually be a requirement for leasing a business from my team, that you will not put extraordinarily high prices on items or give them away for free for no reason whatsoever). For prices of guns and drugs I have little to no input on as that is more in the jurisdiction of @Xgin and his team and they could give more input on these. At least from the legal side of things, I can assure you I will use everything in my power to avoid unrealistic prices on consumer goods. Also noteworthy to mention here, I am at least in my sphere of influence employing the concept of finitism and scarcity. Which in turn means, there won't be unlimited housing, there won't be unlimited supplies, and most important for me there won't be an infinite amount of money floating around in the part of the economy I oversee.

We are also working towards making the aforementioned welfare system as something that can be to some extent be influenced by the State Government ran by @Maxim through budget allocations and such, though no details are yet ready to be published (principle of finitism again, if the Govt decides to allocate more funds towards welfare but that in turn means they go over the budget cap and can't sustain it, it will be cancelled out) on how exactly that will pan out.

This is the general outline from my side and my team. For future reference you can look up the posts by @ezkNYNE on vehicles and such, or generally take a look at my post history in regards to similar topics.
Sounds awesome, I'm up for all that.
 

Dimes

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Since it is our goal to be transparent and this is within my sphere of influence (at least the conception and design phase), yes I can elaborate a little further.

Scripted jobs will be kept to a minimal amount and will pay significantly less than roleplay jobs (I am not talking half, I am talking one tenth if not less). Players will be encouraged to seek "employment" with either legal factions or a concept I sadly cannot share much about YET, to receive a steady flow of income.

Furthermore, the prices of vehicles, houses and apartments will be in the area of $15,000.00 to $500,000.00 with outliers on either side really. Houses or apartments in areas claimed by gangs, thanks to the great support from Faction Management and @Xgin here, will be nowhere near $5,000,000.00 or generally speaking nowhere near the $100,000.00 mark. They will be affordable in terms of monetary effort needed to buy it, to allow factions to establish themselves. Player to player trading with absolute ridiculous prices will also be combatted by my team, if we see/find/get a report from someone or possibly even by the script that only a certain percentage of the MSRP can be added to the sales value. Plus with an active and engaging Property Management team in close cooperation with Faction Management, there shouldn't be any housing held by inactive players for long.

I'll give you a concrete example:
The projects of South Los Santos, have many buildings that would be suitable for apartment complexes, but also standalone houses. Since we suppose that many gangs will focus on blocks around there, we can somewhat anticipate the rate of crime and such. Furthermore, we know that these areas will be highly frequented by players who seek to join these factions. To allow them to establish themselves in this area, the prices for an apartment in one of the complexes would be $15,000.00 to $30,000.00 (depending on the number of the rooms). Not more, since it is realistic that areas with gang activity or illegal activity would be relatively inexpensive to settle in. There are more details for this that I cannot share at this point in time, sorry.

Now with that out of the way, how we aim to counter the script job grind and allow people to focus on roleplay, we have multiple ideas floating around:
One such being - players can take jobs in any business that is owned by the server and roleplay their jobs there, if someone is actively attending the business (e.g. a grocery store), there might a blip on the map indicating it is staffed actively, or other non-staffed businesses will be locked. Through this the player not only gets a paycheck (yet to be exactly defined how this will be handled, so I'll go with the hourly format there are more ideas for this) from the business, but also a sales commission from the goods that were sold during the time the player staffed the business (if multiple players staff the same business the formula for the commission would be: sales commission divided by the number of players staffing the business).

Another being a system similar to the faction system, where players can employ other players. This could work wonderfully with garages, dealerships, clubs, restaurants and so forth.

And last but not least, there will be a sort of welfare that a player will receive as long as they are not employed by: a) a legal faction, b) a player owned business, c) exceed a certain value held in assets (arbitrary number: $200,000.00), which will cover all the necessary expenses a player might encounter daily. With that said, of course we need to consider the prices of all other goods aside from vehicles, and properties. I personally don't want to see entrance fees exceeding $100.00, or drinks and food costing more than $50.00 in non-exclusive businesses (that will actually be a requirement for leasing a business from my team, that you will not put extraordinarily high prices on items or give them away for free for no reason whatsoever). For prices of guns and drugs I have little to no input on as that is more in the jurisdiction of @Xgin and his team and they could give more input on these. At least from the legal side of things, I can assure you I will use everything in my power to avoid unrealistic prices on consumer goods. Also noteworthy to mention here, I am at least in my sphere of influence employing the concept of finitism and scarcity. Which in turn means, there won't be unlimited housing, there won't be unlimited supplies, and most important for me there won't be an infinite amount of money floating around in the part of the economy I oversee.

We are also working towards making the aforementioned welfare system as something that can be to some extent be influenced by the State Government ran by @Maxim through budget allocations and such, though no details are yet ready to be published (principle of finitism again, if the Govt decides to allocate more funds towards welfare but that in turn means they go over the budget cap and can't sustain it, it will be cancelled out) on how exactly that will pan out.

This is the general outline from my side and my team. For future reference you can look up the posts by @ezkNYNE on vehicles and such, or generally take a look at my post history in regards to similar topics.
This is amazing.
 

Snow Wolf

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This thread has derailed way too much into a discussion about economy, which this shouldn't be. Wouldn't we encourage stupid shit if people had a safety net and get to keep all their things? I don't understand the entire "I can't be CK'd unless I agree to it" philosophy. Who would actually agree to that if it would actually be on the line?

Back at other servers, we had a 3:1 rule. That is if you were outnumbered three to one (6:2 etc), you were fair game for CKs if you did something stupid. This way you're actually afraid when your store is being robbed. There is a genuine but unlikely chance of permanent death when you misbehave.
 

nanpou.

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This thread has derailed way too much into a discussion about economy, which this shouldn't be. Wouldn't we encourage stupid shit if people had a safety net and get to keep all their things? I don't understand the entire "I can't be CK'd unless I agree to it" philosophy. Who would actually agree to that if it would actually be on the line?

Back at other servers, we had a 3:1 rule. That is if you were outnumbered three to one (6:2 etc), you were fair game for CKs if you did something stupid. This way you're actually afraid when your store is being robbed. There is a genuine but unlikely chance of permanent death when you misbehave.
I, like 80% of the server are against this for quite obvious reasons. Ill give you two, DM mentality, nobody’s going to play if that happens either.
 

Peezy

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This thread has derailed way too much into a discussion about economy, which this shouldn't be. Wouldn't we encourage stupid shit if people had a safety net and get to keep all their things? I don't understand the entire "I can't be CK'd unless I agree to it" philosophy. Who would actually agree to that if it would actually be on the line?

Back at other servers, we had a 3:1 rule. That is if you were outnumbered three to one (6:2 etc), you were fair game for CKs if you did something stupid. This way you're actually afraid when your store is being robbed. There is a genuine but unlikely chance of permanent death when you misbehave.

Most CKs happen at the hands of leadership within factions for IC reasons (most of the time at least). Players not in a faction should never be forced to CK, it's their character so it's their choice. If someone doesn't RP accordingly to a certain situation, report them.

On the other hand though, couldn't there be a system for players to request CK perms on someone?
 

nanpou.

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Most CKs happen at the hands of leadership within factions for IC reasons (most of the time at least). Players not in a faction should never be forced to CK, it's their character so it's their choice. If someone doesn't RP accordingly to a certain situation, report them.

On the other hand though, couldn't there be a system for players to request CK perms on someone?
That’s still forcing CKs on people which has a chance at affecting the PB. Maybe if the CK is forced via a request, they keep ALL of their assets.
 

Snick

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I still think we should give it a go, we can always change it back to the same old way we're used to if we see it's not as good as we thought it'd be.
People are afraid of change, but that change could be a good one who knows.
 
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